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October 10, 2024 • 52min
Don’t Argue or Fight With a Difficult Person – Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)
The Mel Robbins Podcast
In this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, Mel interviews Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a renowned psychologist and expert on narcissism. They discuss how to deal with narcissistic personalities in various relationships and situations, from romantic partners to family members. Dr. Ramani provides practical advice on setting boundaries, protecting yourself emotionally, and navigating challenging dynamics with narcissists.
Don’t Argue or Fight With a Difficult Person – Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)
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Key Takeaways
- Narcissism is a personality style, not a clinical diagnosis. It's important to recognize the signs as it can be maladaptive and harmful to others.
- You cannot change a narcissist. The only thing you can change is your approach and how you deal with them.
- Setting boundaries with narcissists is futile. Instead, set internal boundaries for yourself on how you'll engage with them.
- Teenage narcissistic behavior is often normal developmental "shitting the nest" and may not indicate true narcissism. Look at how they treat peers and other adults.
- Narcissists don't experience deep, companionate love. Their relationships tend to be shallow, passionate, and performative.
- Adult narcissistic children may use grandchildren as leverage against parents. Grandparents must decide their "true north" priorities.
- When an adult child marries a narcissist, don't directly criticize. Instead, gently remind them of their pre-relationship self and interests.
- Caring for an aging narcissistic parent is challenging. Frame it as an act of compassion that aligns with your values, not for their gratitude.
- Be extremely cautious about re-engaging with a narcissist after no contact. They likely haven't changed and may hurt you again.
Introduction
In this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, Mel interviews Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a renowned psychologist and expert on narcissism. They discuss how to deal with narcissistic personalities in various relationships and situations, from romantic partners to family members. Dr. Ramani provides practical advice on setting boundaries, protecting yourself emotionally, and navigating challenging dynamics with narcissists.
Topics Discussed
Defining Narcissism vs. Inflated Ego (09:50)
Dr. Ramani explains that narcissism is more than just an inflated ego:
- An inflated ego is just one part of the broader narcissism spectrum
- Narcissism also includes: variable empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, need for admiration/validation, envy, need for control
- Someone with just an inflated ego may not be narcissistic
- The key difference is that narcissists are harmful, not just annoying
Dealing with a Narcissistic Spouse and Children (12:16)
Dr. Ramani addresses a question about leaving a narcissistic husband:
- There's no clear-cut answer - it depends on many factors
- Family court can be abusive and narcissists often use it to punish ex-partners
- Key advice: Get child into therapy before divorce while you only need one parent's consent
- Consult a divorce attorney to understand custody and financial implications
- Some wait until children are 18 to avoid custody battles
Setting Boundaries with Narcissists (21:21)
Dr. Ramani explains why traditional boundary-setting doesn't work with narcissists:
- Telling a narcissist about your boundaries invites them to violate them
- Instead, set internal boundaries for yourself:
- Recognize their patterns and limitations
- Decide in advance how you'll engage or disengage
- Don't expect them to change or respect your boundaries
- Example: Limiting visits to 3 nights maximum
Teenage Narcissism vs. Normal Development (24:48)
Dr. Ramani cautions against labeling teenagers as narcissists:
- Adolescence involves "separation and individuation" - pushing away from parents
- "Shitting the nest" behavior is common and helps teens leave home
- Brain development continues until 25-27 years old
- Key indicators of potential narcissism in teens:
- Mistreating peers consistently
- Problems across multiple settings (school, work, home)
- Lack of reciprocal friendships
Can Narcissists Experience True Love? (33:35)
Dr. Ramani explains narcissists' limited capacity for deep love:
- Narcissists have a shallow, transactional definition of love
- They seek passionate, romantic love but struggle with long-term companionate love
- Their relationships lack mutuality, reciprocity, and depth
- Love is often performative, especially on social media
- They may quickly move on to new partners, but the pattern repeats
Dealing with Narcissistic Adult Children (37:36)
Dr. Ramani addresses the painful dynamic of narcissistic adult children using grandchildren as leverage:
- Grandchildren become the "ultimate tool of manipulation"
- Parents may feel guilty or responsible for their child's narcissism
- Advice for grandparents:
- Determine your "true north" priorities regarding grandchildren
- Accept you may have to "dance" to their demands for access
- Protect your finances from potential exploitation
When an Adult Child Marries a Narcissist (43:57)
Dr. Ramani provides strategies for parents concerned about their child's narcissistic partner:
- Don't directly criticize or label the partner as narcissistic
- Use the "breaking the shelf" technique:
- Gently remind your child of their pre-relationship interests and self
- Ask open-ended questions about their well-being
- Aim to "turn the wheels" of their own realization
- Be patient - confrontation often backfires
Dealing with Psychopathic vs. Narcissistic Traits (48:13)
Dr. Ramani explains the difference between psychopathy and narcissism:
- Psychopathic traits: cold, callous, calculating, deceitful, lack of empathy/remorse, superficial charm, elaborate lies
- Psychopaths can be more dangerous than narcissists
- They may create false narratives about family members who try to warn others
- Advice if trying to warn someone: Provide documentation if possible, then step back if not believed
Caring for an Aging Narcissistic Parent (53:15)
Dr. Ramani offers guidance on the challenging task of caregiving for a narcissistic parent:
- Frame it as an act of compassion that aligns with your values
- Don't expect gratitude or a change in their behavior
- Approach it like caring for a difficult patient
- Maintain meaningful pursuits and support outside of caregiving
- Focus on being true to your own character, not pleasing them
Reconnecting with a Narcissistic Parent (54:21)
Dr. Ramani cautions about re-engaging after no contact:
- Be realistic - they likely haven't changed fundamentally
- Consider your emotional capacity to withstand potential hurt
- Review your "ick list" of past harmful behaviors
- Role-play scenarios in therapy before deciding
Conclusion
Dr. Ramani's expertise provides valuable insights for dealing with narcissistic personalities across various relationships. The overarching message is clear: narcissists rarely change, so the focus must be on protecting yourself emotionally and setting realistic expectations. By understanding narcissistic patterns and implementing internal boundaries, it's possible to navigate these challenging relationships while staying true to your own values and well-being.