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July 19, 2024 • 2hr 17min
#756: Anne Lamott and Josh Waitzkin
The Tim Ferriss Show
This episode features segments from two previous interviews on The Tim Ferriss Show - one with author Anne Lamott and another with learning expert Josh Waitzkin. Both guests share insights on creativity, personal growth, learning, and performance that can be applied across many domains.
Anne Lamott is the bestselling author of books like Bird by Bird and Operating Instructions. She discusses her approach to writing, overcoming perfectionism, and practicing radical self-care. Josh Waitzkin is an expert on learning and performance, having been a chess prodigy and martial arts champion. He shares his methods for developing physiological awareness, learning deeply from experience, and cultivating quality across all areas of life.
#756: Anne Lamott and Josh Waitzkin
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Key Takeaways
- On writing and creativity:
- Don't wait for inspiration - just sit down and write, even if it's bad at first
- Take it "bird by bird" - focus on small, manageable chunks rather than the whole project
- Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor and the enemy of creativity
- Turn down the inner critic (KFKD radio) and listen to your supportive inner voice
- On personal growth and self-care:
- Practice radical self-care and make yourself a priority
- Embrace your "funk" and eccentricities rather than trying to fit a mold
- Dark nights of the soul can lead to transformation if you sit with the discomfort
- Cultivate presence, quality, and mindfulness in all aspects of life
- On learning and performance:
- Develop physiological awareness to tune into subtle internal cues
- Use visualization and "fire walking" to learn deeply from others' experiences
- Apply principles across disciplines to see thematic interconnectedness
- Embrace chaos and develop the ability to find flow in difficult conditions
- On parenting and education:
- Model the behaviors and mindsets you want to instill in children
- Encourage agency, curiosity, and seeing connections between ideas
- Focus on praising effort and process rather than fixed traits
- Integrate principles of learning across different subjects
Introduction
This episode features segments from two previous interviews on The Tim Ferriss Show - one with author Anne Lamott and another with learning expert Josh Waitzkin. Both guests share insights on creativity, personal growth, learning, and performance that can be applied across many domains.
Anne Lamott is the bestselling author of books like Bird by Bird and Operating Instructions. She discusses her approach to writing, overcoming perfectionism, and practicing radical self-care. Josh Waitzkin is an expert on learning and performance, having been a chess prodigy and martial arts champion. He shares his methods for developing physiological awareness, learning deeply from experience, and cultivating quality across all areas of life.
Topics Discussed
Anne Lamott on Writing and Creativity (5:51)
Anne Lamott shares her philosophy on writing and creativity, drawing from her popular book Bird by Bird:
- The title "Bird by Bird" comes from advice her father gave her brother on tackling a big school project - take it one small piece at a time
- Don't wait for inspiration to write - just sit down and do it, even if the first draft is terrible
- "Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor, the voice of the enemy. It will keep you crazy your entire life."
- She teaches people to "stop not writing" rather than how to write perfectly
- Turn down the inner critic (which she calls KFKD radio) and listen to your supportive inner voice instead
Overcoming People-Pleasing and Practicing Self-Care (12:37)
Lamott discusses her journey from people-pleasing to radical self-care:
- She grew up trying to keep her family happy and together, getting self-esteem from external validation
- This led to perfectionism, anxiety, and putting others' needs before her own
- Through therapy and recovery, she learned to make herself a priority
- "Radical self-care and becoming my own priority" became central to her life and writing
Dark Nights of the Soul and Transformation (24:40)
Lamott shares powerful stories of hitting rock bottom and finding transformation:
- Her alcoholism led to a 3-day blackout that became a turning point
- Exhaustion from people-pleasing led to an emotional breakdown and shift in priorities
- Her son's addiction and recovery taught her the limits of trying to control others
- These experiences showed her that transformation often comes from sitting with discomfort
Josh Waitzkin on Physiological Awareness (55:07)
Josh Waitzkin explains his approach to developing high-level sensitivity and awareness:
- Cultivate the ability to sense subtle internal cues and quality shifts
- This allows you to detect opportunities, dangers, and cognitive biases early
- It's key for high-level performance in chess, investing, and other domains
- Develop this through meditation, biofeedback training, and mindfulness practices
The "Fire Walking" Process for Deep Learning (1:33:42)
Waitzkin describes his method for learning deeply from others' experiences:
- Most people learn much more potently from their own experiences vs others'
- "Fire walking" is learning to have the same physiological intensity from others' experiences
- This allows you to gain wisdom without having to personally go through every situation
- It involves visualization, empathy, and recreating the physiological state
Applying Principles Across Disciplines (1:40:11)
Waitzkin discusses how he translates insights between different domains:
- Look for thematic interconnectedness and hidden harmonies between pursuits
- This allows you to "learn the many from the few" and accelerate growth
- He gives examples of applying martial arts principles to investing
- Cultivating this ability is key to his approach to learning and performance
Embracing Chaos and Finding Flow (45:52)
Waitzkin explains how he developed the ability to thrive in chaotic conditions:
- As a chess player, he would intentionally create chaos on the board
- He trained himself to be at peace and find flow in difficult conditions
- This became a key competitive advantage and way of dealing with pressure
- He now helps others cultivate this ability in various performance domains
Parenting and Child Development (1:06:03)
Waitzkin shares his approach to parenting and child development:
- Model the behaviors and mindsets you want to instill
- Encourage agency, curiosity, and making connections between ideas
- Frame challenges positively (e.g. bad weather as an adventure)
- Introduce meditation and awareness practices early in playful ways
- Praise effort and process rather than fixed traits or talent
The Art of Learning Project (2:04:08)
Waitzkin discusses his non-profit foundation focused on education:
- Works with schools to integrate principles of learning across subjects
- Helps students see thematic interconnectedness between disciplines
- Aims to cultivate love of learning and creative problem-solving
- Interested educators can learn more at theartoflearningproject.org
Conclusion
Both Anne Lamott and Josh Waitzkin offer valuable insights that can be applied far beyond writing or chess. Key themes include:
- Overcoming perfectionism and inner criticism to unlock creativity
- The importance of self-care, presence, and embracing one's unique qualities
- Developing deep physiological awareness and sensitivity
- Finding thematic connections to accelerate learning and performance
- Cultivating the ability to thrive in challenging, chaotic conditions
- Approaches to parenting and education that foster curiosity and growth
Their perspectives encourage us to approach life, work, and learning with greater presence, self-compassion, and openness to making unexpected connections. By developing our awareness, embracing challenges, and looking for underlying principles, we can unlock new levels of creativity, learning, and performance across all areas of life.