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June 25, 2024 • 2hr 18min
#749: Michael Lewis and Martine Rothblatt
The Tim Ferriss Show
This episode is a "two-for-one" special, featuring segments from two of Tim Ferriss' favorite interviews over the past decade - author Michael Lewis and entrepreneur/inventor Martine Rothblatt. The goal is to introduce listeners to both household names and lesser-known "stars" who have greatly impacted Tim's life and thinking.
#749: Michael Lewis and Martine Rothblatt
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Key Takeaways
- Michael Lewis left a lucrative Wall Street career to become a writer, following his passion despite the financial risk
- Lewis emphasizes the importance of finding work you love and not getting trapped by money or success
- Dr. Martine Rothblatt founded a biotech company to save her daughter's life and has since become a pioneer in organ manufacturing and transplantation
- Rothblatt advocates for "questioning authority" and thinking differently to solve problems
- Both guests highlight the value of pursuing unconventional paths and following one's interests and convictions
Introduction
This episode features two guests: Michael Lewis, bestselling author of books like Moneyball and The Big Short, and Dr. Martine Rothblatt, founder of United Therapeutics and pioneer in organ manufacturing. The conversations cover their unconventional career paths, the importance of pursuing one's passions, and insights on writing, technology, and ethics.
Topics Discussed
Michael Lewis's Transition from Wall Street to Writing (5:54)
Lewis describes leaving his high-paying job at Salomon Brothers to become a writer:
- He viewed his Wall Street job as temporary from the start, driven more by curiosity than career ambition
- He was writing on the side while at Salomon Brothers, including controversial op-eds about the finance industry
- An offer to write a book gave him the push to leave, despite the major pay cut
"I looked ahead of me and I looked at people who were 35, 37, and they seemed ancient, and they seemed completely stuck. Like they made so much money and their lives had adapted to the making of money. They depended on the making of money. I just thought, there's no way I'd spend a lot of time here and still even want to do this. I'd be trapped, and I don't want to do that."
The Impact and Reception of Liar's Poker (12:58)
Lewis discusses how his first book, Liar's Poker, was received:
- He intended it as a cautionary tale about Wall Street excess
- Many young readers instead saw it as a guide for how to succeed in finance
- This taught Lewis that readers may interpret a book very differently from the author's intent
"I had dozens of letters a day from young readers saying, 'Dear Mr. Lewis, I really loved your how-to book about Wall Street, about how to make money on Wall Street. And I'm hoping that there's some tips in there that you didn't put in there that you could let me know.'"
Lewis's Views on Ambition and Success (15:16)
Lewis shares his perspective on ambition and measuring success:
- He's skeptical of using money as a measure of success or winning
- Fame and attention are more appealing to him, though he's become less driven by external validation over time
- His main motivation is the satisfaction of creating great work
"If I'm trying to maximize anything, it's a feeling. And it's a feeling that that was a kick-ass book. I could look at something and just say, that is a great piece of work. That feeling is what I'm kind of always gunning for."
Lewis's Writing Process and Habits (18:31)
Lewis describes some of his writing habits:
- He often writes late at night while listening to music on headphones
- He creates playlists specific to each book project
- The music helps block out distractions and put him in a writing mindset
The Value of Harsh Editing (20:51)
Lewis credits editor Michael Kinsley with helping improve his writing:
- Kinsley provided harsh but valuable critiques of Lewis's early work
- This level of blunt feedback is rare but extremely helpful for writers
- It helped Lewis identify and eliminate bad writing habits
"Michael Kinsley could not help himself. He delivered the most withering critiques of your work, the kind of throat clearing, phony first paragraph, which was totally unnecessary. It would come back, it'd be just a big X through it. 'Why'd you even write that? Start here.'"
The Merits of "Productive Laziness" (23:52)
Lewis discusses the value of stepping back and not feeling pressured to always be productive:
- Taking time away from work can help filter out less important projects
- It allows space for truly compelling ideas to emerge
- This approach has helped Lewis avoid repeating himself and take creative risks
"Being able to back away and get yourself in a state of mind in which I can say, it's okay if I never write anything else... changes your relationship to potential stories and potential material. It requires the material to rise to the level of interest where you feel obliged to engage with it."
How Lewis Chooses His Projects (28:13)
Lewis explains how he decides which book ideas to pursue:
- He looks for stories where he feels he has unique access or insight
- He's driven by a sense of obligation to tell important stories
- The material needs to feel compelling enough to sustain his interest long-term
"There are a couple of feelings that I associate with the desire to write a book. One is a feeling that if I don't do it, it won't properly get done, because I have some privileged access to the story."
Lewis's Life Philosophy (29:51)
Lewis shares a motto that captures his approach to work and life:
- The phrase "Don't be good, be great" comes from his high school baseball coach
- It encourages pushing beyond "good enough" to strive for excellence
- This mindset has stayed with Lewis throughout his career
"Don't be good, be great... It's sort of one of those things that's in the billboard of my mind."
Dr. Rothblatt's Introduction to Alan Watts (33:14)
Rothblatt discusses her appreciation for philosopher Alan Watts:
- She was introduced to Watts through transhumanist literature
- Watts' ideas about the dialectic nature of reality resonated with her
- His perspective helps her find positives in seemingly negative situations
"Alan Watts has a really unique ability to see the dialectic aspect of everything in nature. By that I mean that there's a kind of a yin-yang aspect to everything in nature."
Rothblatt's Views on AI and Human Consciousness (35:34)
Rothblatt shares her thoughts on the development of artificial intelligence:
- She believes AI will gradually become more human-like and eventually achieve sentience
- This process will likely happen in stages, from rodent to primate to human-level intelligence
- She sees AI as an extension of human consciousness rather than a separate entity
"I think that there will be a digital copy of a person, and another word is like a digital doppelganger of a person who will claim to be the original person, and they may make that claim before or after the person died."
The Creation of BINA48 (36:31)
Rothblatt describes BINA48, an AI-powered robotic head modeled after her wife:
- It was created as a combination of science and art project
- The goal was to inspire young people, especially girls, to pursue computer science
- BINA48 continues to be updated with more advanced software
"We contracted with a couple of companies who were experts in both the software engineering side and in the physical modeling of a face that moves exactly like a human face does."
Rothblatt's Early Influences and Role Models (39:53)
Rothblatt discusses some of her early inspirations:
- Science fiction author Robert Heinlein, especially his book "Time Enough for Love"
- Politician Robert Kennedy and his progressive approach
- Carl Sagan and his ability to make science accessible to the public
The Origin of United Therapeutics (41:20)
Rothblatt recounts how she started her biotech company:
- Her daughter was diagnosed with a rare, fatal lung disease
- With no existing treatments, Rothblatt immersed herself in medical research
- She discovered a potential treatment that had been abandoned by a pharmaceutical company
- After persistent effort, she licensed the drug and founded United Therapeutics to develop it
"I just began reading and reading and reading. Most of the time, I read things I didn't understand what they were talking about because there were these long medical words and chemical words that I never learned in law school... but of course, there were dictionaries, and I looked up the words in a dictionary."
Overcoming Obstacles in Drug Development (49:18)
Rothblatt describes the challenges of acquiring the drug from GlaxoWellcome:
- Initially rejected, she had to create a new biotech company to be taken seriously
- Persistence and luck (including a personal connection) eventually led to success
- The drug has since saved thousands of lives and generated billions in revenue
"After we successfully developed this molecule, we have, over time, paid more than a billion dollars just in royalties to GlaxoWellcome, because that molecule has saved thousands of people's lives."
Rothblatt's Passion for Satellite Technology (56:31)
Rothblatt explains how she became interested in satellite communications:
- A visit to a NASA tracking station as a teenager sparked her fascination
- She was inspired by the idea of broadcasting information globally via satellite
- This led to her studying communications and eventually founding SiriusXM
"I just said, wow, that's the purpose of my life. And I made a beeline back to UCLA. I changed my major to communication studies. I did an undergraduate thesis on direct broadcast satellites."
Rothblatt's Approach to Scientific Literacy (1:00:41)
Rothblatt shares her thoughts on improving scientific understanding:
- She emphasizes the importance of relating science to people's everyday lives
- She recommends the book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn
- Rothblatt believes in encouraging critical thinking and questioning authority
"I would ask my students to think about anything that's important in their life, whatever it might be, and from whatever they said was important to their life, I would then begin wrapping that in kind of layers and layers of basic scientific concepts that pertain to what was important to them."
Rothblatt's Personal Experience with Gender (1:07:29)
Rothblatt discusses her journey as a transgender person:
- She began questioning her gender identity as a teenager
- Through research, she discovered a spectrum of gender identities beyond the male/female binary
- She emphasizes that transgender experiences are unique to each individual
"I learned through books that humanity was not either strictly male or strictly female. And as I began to question authority, I began to say to myself, why can't I also come out as not strictly male and not strictly female."
Genetic Rights and Autonomy (1:13:54)
Rothblatt explains her work on genetic rights:
- She advocates for protecting the rights of communities whose genetic information is used in research
- This includes ensuring consent and fair compensation for genetic data
- She gives an example of a community in Ecuador with unique genetic traits being studied for medical research
"What I was concerned with is that if people extract the DNA from these remote communities, that they, in fact, do so only with the consent of those communities or with the consent of the elected representatives of those communities so that they can have some fair financial return for their natural endowment."
Organ Manufacturing and Transplantation (1:20:38)
Rothblatt discusses United Therapeutics' work on organ manufacturing:
- There's a huge gap between organ demand and supply
- The company is working on creating transplantable organs using genetically modified pigs
- They're also developing ways to refurbish and improve donated organs
"One of the greatest unmet medical needs today is an adequate supply of transplantable organs."
Bioelectronic Medicine and Vagus Nerve Stimulation (1:21:51)
Rothblatt explains their research into bioelectronic medicine:
- They're exploring ways to treat diseases by stimulating the vagus nerve
- This approach has shown promise for conditions like Crohn's disease and rheumatoid arthritis
- The goal is to develop non-invasive treatments using electrical stimulation
"By stimulating the vagus nerve, it's possible to have positive therapeutic effects in the body."
Ethical Considerations in Technology (1:49:33)
Rothblatt discusses the ethical challenges of emerging technologies:
- She emphasizes the importance of considering both rights and obligations in technological development
- Consent from affected communities is crucial
- She predicts "technoethics" will become an important field in the future
"I believe like an amazing field for the future, a field that will probably in the future have almost as many people with this career as are web designers today is the field of technoethics. Everybody who wants to create a technology will need to wrap that technology in an ethical envelope of consent."
Future Perspectives on Current Practices (1:54:07)
Rothblatt speculates on how future generations might view our current practices:
- She believes our continued reliance on fossil fuels despite climate change will be seen as absurd
- The underutilization of renewable energy sources may be viewed as a major oversight
- Our approach to nuclear energy might be reassessed in light of its low fatality rate compared to fossil fuels
"I think the fact that we burn our own house will look to be absolutely bonkers. People would say, well, let me get this right, you've got, like, you know, a super thin atmosphere... and you continue to just spew, without limit greenhouse gases into this atmosphere despite the fact that know people are dying on the shorelines, dying of diseases, et cetera, et cetera."
Zero Carbon Footprint Buildings (1:58:20)
Rothblatt describes United Therapeutics' efforts to create sustainable infrastructure:
- They built the world's largest zero carbon footprint building for their headquarters
- The building uses geothermal wells, solar panels, and smart ventilation
- It produces more energy than it uses each year
"We built 150,000 square foot, zero carbon footprint building, which turned out to be the largest zero carbon footprint building in the entire world. And we inaugurated it a couple years ago. It turns out we produced more energy than we use each year."
Electric Helicopters for Organ Transportation (2:02:53)
Rothblatt discusses plans for sustainable organ transportation:
- The company aims to use electric helicopters powered by renewable energy
- This would allow for organ delivery without increasing carbon emissions
- She predicts this will be achieved within the current decade
"I am absolutely convinced that in this decade, the 2020s, we will be delivering manufactured organs by electric helicopter."
Rothblatt's Guiding Philosophy (2:04:57)
Rothblatt shares a key principle that guides her work:
- The phrase "Identify the corridors of indifference and run like hell down them"
- This means finding overlooked areas or unmet needs and focusing efforts there
- It's about being a leader in a niche rather than competing in overcrowded fields
"Identify the corridors of indifference and run like hell down them means to try to find a market area that is ignored, an unmet need."
The Importance of Thinking Differently (2:07:46)
Rothblatt emphasizes the value of unconventional thinking:
- She believes "Think different" (Apple's slogan) is a crucial message
- Diverse and innovative thinking is necessary to solve complex problems
- Questioning authority and exploring new ideas is essential for progress
"The only way to get out of the problems that we face is to think differently, to go down the corridor of indifference, to question authority, to be diverse. Thinking different is the pathway to solving problems that exist today."
Maintaining Perspective and Hope (2:09:18)
Rothblatt offers advice for maintaining a positive outlook:
- She suggests staying connected to one's ancestors and their struggles
- Recognizing the progress made over generations can provide perspective
- She believes we owe it to previous generations to make the most of our opportunities
"What do I owe to my grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents who suffered and toiled, who barely managed to survive to produce another generation? I owe to them to make the absolute most possible out of my life. And that's what I'm going to do."
Conclusion
This episode provides insights from two remarkable individuals who have followed unconventional paths to success. Michael Lewis emphasizes the importance of pursuing work you love and not getting trapped by financial success, while Dr. Martine Rothblatt demonstrates the power of questioning authority and applying oneself to solving important problems. Both guests highlight the value of thinking differently and pursuing one's passions, even when it means taking risks or entering unfamiliar fields. Their stories offer inspiration for listeners to pursue their own unique paths and make a positive impact on the world.