June 6, 2024 • 2hr 37min
#744: Jocko Willink and Sebastian Junger
The Tim Ferriss Show
Key Takeaways
- Humility, the ability to listen and be coachable, and balancing the "dichotomy of leadership" are key traits of effective leaders (10:01)
- Detachment, the skill of stepping back to observe a situation objectively, is critical for leaders to make good decisions (11:46)
- Intense, high-pressure training exercises can help develop the ability to detach and maintain focus under stress (15:34)
- Jocko Willink's morning routine of waking up early and working out sets the tone for his day and gives him a "psychological win" (18:46)
- Sebastian Junger's writing style evolved from reading authors like John McPhee and Joan Didion, focusing on efficiency and innovation in language (39:00)
- Junger's experiences in war zones and tribal societies led him to explore themes of belonging, community, and the human need for rites of passage (59:09)
- The concept of "skin walkers" - Navajo folklore about people who have lost their humanity - resonated with Junger as a metaphor for mass shooters in modern society (1:01:14)
Introduction
This episode is a "super combo" featuring segments from two previous episodes of The Tim Ferriss Show - one with retired Navy SEAL officer Jocko Willink, and one with journalist and author Sebastian Junger.
The discussion covers a range of topics, from the key traits of effective leadership, to the importance of detachment and objectivity, to the evolution of Junger's writing style and his exploration of themes like belonging, community, and rites of passage through his experiences in war zones and tribal societies.
Topics Discussed
Jocko Willink on Effective Leadership (07:59)
- Humility and the ability to listen and be coachable are critical for leaders
- The "dichotomy of leadership" - balancing opposing forces like aggression and courage, closeness and distance with subordinates
- Detachment, the skill of stepping back to observe a situation objectively, is key for making good decisions
"The immediate answer that comes to mind is humility, because you've got to be humble and you've got to be coachable." - Jocko Willink (07:59)
Willink explains that the best leaders are able to balance opposing forces and see the bigger picture, rather than getting caught up in the immediate tactical situation. He emphasizes the importance of humility and the ability to step back and observe objectively, rather than just reacting emotionally.
Developing the Skill of Detachment (11:46)
- Willink used intense, high-pressure training exercises to force his men to develop the ability to detach and maintain focus
- The goal was to create a "light bulb moment" where the trainees realized the value of stepping back to observe the situation
- Detachment allows leaders to see the reality of a situation, rather than being blinded by their own emotions or ego
"I realized that detaching yourself from the situation so you could observe it so that you can see what's happening is absolutely critical." - Jocko Willink (13:54)
Willink describes how he would put his men through grueling training exercises to force them to develop the skill of detachment. The goal was to create a moment of realization where they understood the value of stepping back to observe the situation objectively, rather than just reacting emotionally.
Jocko Willink's Morning Routine (18:46)
- Willink wakes up at 4:45am, seeing it as a "psychological win" over the enemy
- He starts his day with a intense workout, including pull-ups, push-ups, deadlifts, and sprints
- This morning routine sets the tone for his day and gives him a sense of control and focus
"I wake up at 445. I like to have that psychological win over the enemy." - Jocko Willink (18:46)
Willink describes his disciplined morning routine of waking up extremely early and immediately starting an intense workout. He sees this as a "psychological win" that sets him up for the day and gives him a sense of control and focus.
Sebastian Junger's Writing Style (39:00)
- Junger's writing style evolved from reading authors like John McPhee and Joan Didion
- He focused on efficiency and innovation in language, avoiding cliches and "linguistic tropes"
- Junger believes good writing is about providing accurate information, not necessarily improving society
"I gravitated towards language that was efficient and lean and innovative." - Sebastian Junger (39:00)
Junger explains how he developed his distinctive writing style by closely studying authors he admired and focusing on using language efficiently and innovatively, rather than relying on cliches or trying to improve society. He sees the role of journalism as providing accurate information, not necessarily advocating for change.
Junger's Experiences in War Zones (59:09)
- Junger's first traumatic experience covering war was seeing severely injured soldiers in Afghanistan
- This led him to explore themes of belonging, community, and rites of passage in tribal societies
- Junger believes the lack of these elements in modern society contributes to issues like PTSD and alienation among veterans
"War is exciting, and it's dramatic and it's important and it's meaningful, and it's all this other stuff. But if you're not also prepared to look unblinkingly, unflinchingly at the worst aspects of war, dismembered people, you really have no business covering the, quote, good parts." - Sebastian Junger (1:06:31)
Junger describes a traumatic experience witnessing severely injured soldiers in Afghanistan, which led him to explore themes of belonging, community, and rites of passage in tribal societies. He believes the lack of these elements in modern society contributes to issues like PTSD and alienation among veterans returning home.
The Concept of "Skin Walkers" (1:01:14)
- Junger encountered the Navajo folklore concept of "skin walkers" - people who have lost their humanity
- He saw this as a metaphor for mass shooters in modern society, who have become disconnected from their community
- The "skin walker" represents the universal human fear of a madman within one's own community
"The skinwalkers are basically the universal human fear that you can defend yourself as a society, as a community. You can defend yourself against all outside enemies, but you are completely vulnerable to one madman in your midst." - Sebastian Junger (1:04:08)
Junger was fascinated by the Navajo concept of "skin walkers" - people who have lost their humanity and turned against their own community. He saw this as a powerful metaphor for mass shooters in modern society, representing the universal fear of a dangerous individual within one's own community.
Junger's Advice for High School Graduates (55:51)
- Junger told graduates that the "hardest thing" they'll ever do is fail at something
- He encouraged them to be prepared to take risks and face failure, rather than just playing it safe
- Junger believes failure and facing challenges is essential for personal growth and development
"The hardest thing you're ever going to do, your life has failed at something, and if you don't start failing at things, you will not live a full life." - Sebastian Junger (55:51)
In a commencement speech, Junger told graduates that the "hardest thing" they'll ever do is fail at something. He encouraged them to be willing to take risks and face failure, rather than just playing it safe, as this is essential for personal growth and development.
Conclusion
This "super combo" episode provides a fascinating look into the perspectives and experiences of two highly accomplished individuals - retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink and journalist/author Sebastian Junger.
The discussion covers a wide range of topics, from the key traits of effective leadership, to the importance of detachment and objectivity, to the evolution of Junger's distinctive writing style, to his exploration of themes like belonging, community, and rites of passage through his experiences in war zones and tribal societies.
Throughout the conversation, both Willink and Junger offer valuable insights and practical advice that can be applied not just in professional settings, but in all aspects of life. Their stories and perspectives provide a thought-provoking look at the human experience and the challenges we face in modern society.