August 1, 2024 • 3hr 7min

#2183 - Norman Ohler

The Joe Rogan Experience

Norman Ohler is a German journalist and author whose books include "Blitzed: Drugs in Nazi Germany" and "Tripped: Nazi Germany, The CIA and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age." In this wide-ranging 3-hour conversation, Ohler discusses his research into the widespread use of methamphetamine and other drugs in Nazi Germany during World War II, including by Adolf Hitler himself. He also explores how this led to US interest in psychoactive substances after the war, the potential use of LSD by JFK, and his views on the role of psychedelics in human history and culture.

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Key Takeaways

Norman Ohler's book "Blitzed" reveals how widespread methamphetamine use in Nazi Germany, including by Hitler himself, impacted World War II
The German military distributed millions of methamphetamine pills to soldiers, especially tank crews, to enable the "blitzkrieg" strategy of rapid invasion
Hitler became increasingly dependent on various drugs, including opioids and cocaine, as the war progressed, which affected his decision-making
The CIA and US military became very interested in psychoactive drugs like LSD after learning about Nazi experiments, leading to programs like MK-Ultra
There is some evidence that JFK may have tried LSD shortly before giving a major speech calling for peace with the Soviet Union in 1963
Ohler argues that psychedelics and other drugs have played a significant but often overlooked role in shaping human history and culture

Introduction

Norman Ohler is a German journalist and author whose books include "Blitzed: Drugs in Nazi Germany" and "Tripped: Nazi Germany, The CIA and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age." In this wide-ranging 3-hour conversation, Ohler discusses his research into the widespread use of methamphetamine and other drugs in Nazi Germany during World War II, including by Adolf Hitler himself. He also explores how this led to US interest in psychoactive substances after the war, the potential use of LSD by JFK, and his views on the role of psychedelics in human history and culture.

Topics Discussed

Origins of Methamphetamine Use in Nazi Germany (57:51)

Ohler explains that methamphetamine was first synthesized in Japan in 1919, but a German pharmaceutical company called Temmler developed their own version in 1937 which they branded as Pervitin. It was initially marketed as a general stimulant and productivity enhancer for civilians before being adopted by the military.

Pervitin (methamphetamine) became widely available over-the-counter in Germany in 1938
It was seen as a "performance enhancing substance" with no stigma attached
The German military became interested in its potential to combat fatigue in soldiers

"There was no coffee available because Germany didn't have colonies like France where they could bring in coffee...So this methamphetamine became very popular. Workers used it in factories, they could increase their output. Party people used it because it boosted your ego."

Methamphetamine Use in the German Military (2:03:37)

Ohler describes how the German military began large-scale distribution of methamphetamine to soldiers, especially for the invasion of France in 1940:

The military ordered 35 million doses of Pervitin before invading France
It was given especially to tank crews to enable non-stop advance for days
Methamphetamine use was a key factor enabling the "blitzkrieg" strategy

"Everyone in these tanks was basically high on crystal meth, all the way through the advance. And there's reports by the French army that they simply could not understand their opponent anymore. They didn't sleep, they just chased through, they behaved like madmen."

Hitler's Drug Use (2:45:54)

Ohler outlines how Hitler's personal physician, Dr. Theodor Morell, began giving him various drugs and supplements starting in 1936:

1936-1941: Mostly vitamins, glucose, and probiotics
1941-1943: Animal hormone extracts and organ-based concoctions
1943-1945: Opioids (especially oxycodone), cocaine, and methamphetamine

"Hitler loved this drug [oxycodone]. He got it injected before the meeting with Mussolini. On the way to the plane he asked for another injection...people who were at the meeting said Hitler was just talking nonstop for 3-4 hours without stopping."

Impact of Drugs on Hitler's Decision-Making (2:59:57)

Ohler argues that Hitler's increasing drug use, especially opioids and cocaine, significantly impacted his mental state and decision-making in the later stages of the war:

Made him more erratic and prone to grandiose thinking
Enabled him to appear confident and charismatic despite Germany's losses
May have contributed to poor strategic decisions in 1944-45

"Hitler on oxycodone had so much power in the room, so much charisma...generals said when they were with Hitler in this room, they were convinced Hitler knew something they didn't know, like he had a wonder weapon up his sleeve."

US Interest in Psychoactive Drugs After WWII (1:12:52)

Ohler describes how US intelligence and military became very interested in psychoactive drugs after learning about Nazi experiments:

US forces captured Nazi scientists and documents related to drug research
The CIA saw potential for "mind control" and interrogation applications
This led to secret programs like MK-Ultra to study LSD and other substances

"The Americans learned actually a lot from the Nazis...The CIA took over this truth drug research from the military. And then Gottlieb was sending his reports to the CIA. This was done by a guy called Sidney Gottlieb. He was the head of MK-Ultra."

Potential LSD Use by JFK (3:07:13)

Ohler discusses the theory that JFK may have tried LSD shortly before giving a major speech calling for peace with the Soviet Union in 1963:

Based on an account in Timothy Leary's autobiography
JFK's friend Mary Pinchot Meyer allegedly obtained LSD from Leary
JFK's "peace speech" weeks later had a very different tone from his usual rhetoric

"In this peace speech...he has a completely different agenda. And he sounds basically like a hippie. He says 'We all live on this planet together, even the Russians. We all care for our children...We're all in this together.'"

Psychedelics and Human History (44:20)

Ohler shares his views on the role of psychedelics in human evolution and culture:

Suggests early human use of psychedelics may have spurred cognitive development
Argues psychedelics have often been a source of cultural and intellectual innovation
Believes responsible psychedelic use could benefit society today

"I think it would be very good for societies to think about rituals or mechanisms or discourse...We need something. We need a legitimate structure."

Conclusion

Norman Ohler's research sheds new light on the significant role that methamphetamine and other drugs played in Nazi Germany and World War II. His work also traces how this led to increased US interest in psychoactive substances during the Cold War. Ohler argues that psychedelics and other drugs have had a profound but often overlooked impact on human history and culture. He suggests that responsible, structured use of psychedelics could potentially benefit society today by fostering new perspectives and greater empathy. However, he acknowledges the need for careful research and regulation. Overall, Ohler's work highlights the complex and sometimes surprising ways that psychoactive substances have shaped major historical events and human consciousness.