July 1, 2024 • 40min

Maddie Hall: A Different Path to the Future

Pattern Breakers

In this episode of Pattern Breakers, Mike Maples Jr. interviews Maddie Hall, co-founder and CEO of Living Carbon. Living Carbon is a climate change biotech company developing genetically engineered trees that capture and store more carbon from the atmosphere. The conversation explores Maddie's journey from a government and psychology major to leading an ambitious climate tech startup, and the mindsets and approaches that enable founders to truly live in and build the future.

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Key Takeaways

Living in the future is about surrounding yourself with people thinking on long timescales and having hypotheses about important future technologies, not just opinions about the future
Getting out of the present and into the future mindset involves reading science fiction, following thought leaders, and engaging with ambitious founders and researchers
People living in the future are often less transactional and more focused on learning and having positive impact than conventional success metrics
Fundraising for ambitious future-focused startups can be challenging initially due to lack of comparables, but becomes easier as progress is demonstrated
Running a future-focused company requires balancing the vision with present-day business realities and stakeholder management
Living Carbon is developing genetically engineered "super trees" that capture and store more carbon to address climate change at gigaton scale

Introduction

In this episode of Pattern Breakers, Mike Maples Jr. interviews Maddie Hall, co-founder and CEO of Living Carbon. Living Carbon is a climate change biotech company developing genetically engineered trees that capture and store more carbon from the atmosphere. The conversation explores Maddie's journey from a government and psychology major to leading an ambitious climate tech startup, and the mindsets and approaches that enable founders to truly live in and build the future.

Topics Discussed

Living Carbon's Technology and Approach (2:24)

Maddie explains that Living Carbon is developing genetically engineered "super trees" that capture and store more carbon as a solution to climate change. Their R&D focuses on two areas:

Carbon capture - Enhancing photosynthesis to remove more carbon from the atmosphere each year
Carbon storage - Improving durability of stored carbon by enhancing resistance to fungal decay

Their first product is a photosynthesis-enhanced hybrid poplar tree. Early greenhouse studies have shown about a 53% increase in biomass accumulation compared to regular trees.

Maddie emphasizes the importance of not oversimplifying results for ambitious future-focused companies, noting:

"I struggle here to give you a specific number, because I think one lesson for really ambitious companies that are from the Future is you don't wanna try to oversimplify and make your results seem too on the nose."

Building a Future-Focused Team (4:55)

Living Carbon's team combines diverse expertise including:

Paleobiologists thinking on geological timescales
World-class researchers with 25+ years of relevant experience
Technical experts motivated to apply their skills in mission-driven ways

Maddie notes the importance of attracting people who have thought deeply about the potential of the technology and want to bring it to market, not just do basic research.

Maddie's Unconventional Path (6:23)

Despite now leading a biotech company, Maddie's background is unconventional:

Undergraduate degree in government and clinical psychology
Early career at tech companies like Zillow and Zenefits
Product management roles working with technical teams
Special projects role at OpenAI before founding Living Carbon

Maddie attributes her path to persistent interests in entrepreneurship, nature, and having positive impact, combined with enjoying working with technical teams on high-stakes problems.

The OpenAI Experience (8:52)

Maddie's time at OpenAI was pivotal in shaping her future-focused mindset. Key aspects included:

Learning how executive teams operate and make high-stakes decisions
Exposure to cutting-edge AI research
Building trust with technical teams
Special research projects on climate change
Cultivating the next generation of ambitious hard science founders
Communicating complex technical concepts to diverse audiences

This experience inspired Maddie to pursue an equally ambitious venture in climate tech, realizing:

"We have to do something ten times as big to what OpenAI is doing for AI, for carbon removal, and for climate."

Living in the Future vs Having Opinions About It (17:05)

Mike and Maddie discuss the difference between truly living in the future versus just having opinions about it. Key points:

Future-focused founders have hypotheses about important future technologies, not just product ideas
They surround themselves with people thinking on similar timescales
Conversations are energizing, learning-focused, and expand thinking
Signs someone is living in the future:
- Quick learning and iteration
- Leaving conversations with new ideas to ponder
- Proactively reaching out to learn about new research/concepts

Maddie emphasizes the importance of tuning into what conversations and people are energizing versus draining when trying to orient towards the future.

Characteristics of Future-Focused People (22:00)

The discussion explores traits of people truly living in the future:

Less transactional, more focused on learning and impact
Often experienced conventional success and now playing a "different game"
Get energy from expanding knowledge about impactful future developments
Ask thoughtful questions showing deep consideration
Think in terms of multiple possible versions of reality
Willing to update views as new information emerges

Maddie notes the importance of being willing to update one's vision:

"As you update your vision of the future and as you continue to live in the future, you have to have a feedback loop into what you're actually doing day to day."

Getting Out of the Present (27:57)

Mike and Maddie discuss how anyone can start orienting themselves towards the future:

Read science fiction and books on future scenarios
Follow thought leaders living in the future on social media
Ask for book recommendations from future-focused people
Meet ambitious founders and ask them questions
Read academic papers on cutting-edge research
Reach out to researchers doing exciting work

Maddie emphasizes that people living in the future often want to help others do the same:

"People who are living in the future also want to help other people do the same. And so if there's a founder that has something or an idea that I think is really high impact or could be high impact or even wants to have a high impact, I will spend as much time as I can with them, helping them start update, nurture their idea into a business."

Challenges of Living in the Future (30:09)

The conversation touches on difficulties faced by those oriented towards the future:

Skepticism and disbelief from others
Focus on potential downsides rather than possibilities
General pessimism about the future
Need to level-set people to have productive conversations

Maddie notes the importance of anchoring discussions in shared philosophy and motivation to enable better questions and dialogue.

Fundraising for Future-Focused Startups (31:38)

Maddie shares her fundraising experience for Living Carbon:

Initial seed round was challenging due to lack of progress to judge
Talked to about 100 people with 50% close rate
Took investments ranging from $25 to multiple millions
Subsequent rounds easier as progress demonstrated
Lack of direct market comparables made valuation tricky

She emphasizes the need for investors to believe in the potential of the science and technology, beyond just conventional metrics.

Running a Future-Focused Company (33:59)

Maddie discusses the realities of operating Living Carbon:

Balancing future vision with present-day business needs
Carefully timing research progress announcements
Managing different stakeholder perspectives and knowledge levels
Using tangible impact metrics to connect people to the future vision

She notes the challenge and importance of resolving the "impedance mismatch" between future vision and present realities:

"What helps me be okay with coming back to the present is, I think, about the long term impact that I want living carbon to have, right? The Gigaton scale carbon removal that we need. And that is a reinforcing motivation of, oh my gosh, if we remove a gigaton of CO2, this has to scale. The only way for this to scale is with capital and the ability for this to be a business."

Lessons Learned as a Founder (37:19)

Maddie reflects on her founder journey so far:

Helpful experiences:
- Product management solving hard problems
- Getting stakeholder buy-in at OpenAI
- Balancing R&D culture with other roles
Challenges faced:
- Lack of clear startup operational checklists
- Balancing competition awareness with focus
- Synthesizing feedback without losing vision

She emphasizes the value of surrounding yourself with experienced mentors when pursuing ambitious future-focused ideas.

Conclusion

This conversation between Mike Maples Jr. and Maddie Hall provides valuable insights into the mindset and approaches needed to truly live in and build the future. Key themes include the importance of surrounding yourself with forward-thinking people, balancing long-term vision with present realities, and the challenges of bringing breakthrough ideas to market. Maddie's journey with Living Carbon demonstrates how unconventional paths can lead to impactful innovations, particularly in critical areas like climate change mitigation.