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January 18, 2025 • 1hr 27min
#891 - John Vervaeke - The Psychology Of Finding Meaning In Life
Modern Wisdom
John Vervaeke is a professor of cognitive science and psychology at the University of Toronto. He is the creator of the popular "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" series and author of "A Return to Meaning." In this wide-ranging conversation with Chris Williamson, they explore the nature of meaning, how to cultivate it, and why modern approaches often fall short.
#891 - John Vervaeke - The Psychology Of Finding Meaning In Life
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Key Takeaways
- Meaning is not just about individual sense-making - it requires connection to others, standards of truth/beauty/goodness, and transformation
- The standard psychological construct of meaning in life is incomplete - it focuses too much on individual attitudes and misses key aspects like wisdom, virtue, and resonance with reality
- We need multiple types of practices to cultivate meaning:
- Dialogical - conversations and relationships that help birth deeper understanding
- Imaginal - serious play and imagination to taste transformation
- Mindful - meditation and contemplation
- Embodied - movement and physical practices
- Some truths can only be learned through transformation - they cannot be taught or reasoned to intellectually
- Modern culture overemphasizes individual autonomy and undervalues humility and facing up to reality beyond ourselves
Introduction
John Vervaeke is a professor of cognitive science and psychology at the University of Toronto. He is the creator of the popular "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" series and author of "A Return to Meaning." In this wide-ranging conversation with Chris Williamson, they explore the nature of meaning, how to cultivate it, and why modern approaches often fall short.
Topics Discussed
The Nature of Meaning (0:00)
Vervaeke explains that meaning operates on multiple levels:
- Sense-making - How we pay attention to and process information to solve problems
- Connection to others - Most problem-solving happens through coordination with other people
- Standards of truth/beauty/goodness - We need connection to ultimate standards to correct ourselves
"We developed the superpower of connecting and coordinating called language...it makes the content of our minds accessible. We're sort of exposed to each other in a way in which no other organism is exposed to its fellow creatures."
Problems with Standard Psychological Models (3:48)
- The standard metrics focus on:
- Coherence - Does your sense-making make sense?
- Purpose - Working toward goals (problematic framing)
- Significance - Connection to something "bigger"
- Key limitations:
- Divorces meaning from wisdom and virtue
- Only looks at individual attitudes, not relationship with reality
- Misses resonance and reverence
The Importance of Reality and Truth (12:25)
A key theme is the relationship between meaning and reality/truth:
- People need to feel connected to what's "real" - not just in an abstract way but viscerally
- Example of relationships - People want to know if their partner is cheating even if ignorance would preserve happiness
- Different types of truth:
- Propositional truth (facts/evidence)
- Perspectival truth (what it's like to be you)
- Participatory truth (fitting/belonging)
Purpose vs Orientation (17:56)
Vervaeke critiques the common focus on "purpose":
- Problems with purpose:
- Makes life meaningless if you don't achieve goals
- Creates emptiness after achieving goals
- Can be very ego-centric
- Better framework: Orientation
- Focus on journey rather than destination
- Reality-centric rather than ego-centric
- Connected to ultimate standards of truth/beauty/goodness
Modern Meaning Crisis (31:54)
Discussion of contemporary challenges around meaning:
- Three types of responses:
- Despair - Depression, anxiety, addiction
- Replacement - Marvel movies, politics, conspiracy theories
- Renewal - Stoicism, psychedelics, mindfulness
- COVID as revealing moment - Showed lack of existential resilience when routines disrupted
- Modern problems:
- Lack of fellowship beyond friendship
- Difficulty maintaining long-term commitments
- Famine of wisdom
Transformation and Unteachable Lessons (56:47)
Some key insights can only come through experience:
- Examples of "unteachable lessons":
- Money/success won't make you happy
- Physical attraction isn't enough for relationships
- Having children changes everything
- Role of "serious play" - Creating liminal spaces to taste transformation
- Personal example - Vervaeke's story of changing his "type" in relationships
Practices for Cultivating Meaning (1:14:36)
Vervaeke outlines four key dimensions of practice:
- Dialogical:
- Deep conversations
- Mutual "midwifing" of insight
- Fellowship around shared inquiry
- Imaginal:
- Lexio divina (imaginative reading)
- Serious play
- Tasting potential transformation
- Mindful:
- Seated meditation
- Contemplative practices
- Attention training
- Embodied:
- Movement practices
- Tai chi
- Carrying mindfulness into action
Future Projects (1:20:31)
Vervaeke discusses upcoming work:
- Philosophical Silk Road:
- Personal pilgrimage to sacred sites
- Exploring wisdom traditions
- Creating dialogue between traditions
- Four levels of content:
- Personal journey documentation
- Lecture series on key thinkers
- Technical video essays
- Wiki-style "Codex" of concepts
Conclusion
The conversation reveals how cultivating meaning requires moving beyond individual sense-making to deeper connection with reality, others, and transformative practices. Modern psychological models miss key aspects of meaning, and some truths can only be learned through transformation rather than intellectual understanding. The solution involves multiple types of practices - dialogical, imaginal, mindful, and embodied - working together to facilitate genuine change.