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October 19, 2024 • 1hr 29min
#853 - Dr Andrew Thomas - Should We Be Worried About Incel Violence?
Modern Wisdom
Dr. Andrew Thomas is a senior lecturer of psychology at Swansea University and a writer focused on researching incels and male psychology. In this episode, he discusses his recent research on incels, including findings that challenge common stereotypes. He also covers new insights on how income and population density affect family size, as well as nuances in how sexual history impacts mate preferences.
#853 - Dr Andrew Thomas - Should We Be Worried About Incel Violence?
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Key Takeaways
- Incel research needs to move beyond description to intervention - Most current research is still focused on describing incels rather than developing ways to help them
- Mental health approaches show promise for addressing incel ideology - Research suggests addressing mental health issues may help reduce harmful incel beliefs and behaviors
- Incels are more diverse than stereotypes suggest - They tend to be more ethnically diverse, older, and politically centrist than commonly portrayed
- Only a small subset of incels condone violence - Around 6-10% of incels in studies justify violence, not the majority
- Poor experiences with female therapists are common for male clients - Many men report feeling invalidated or misunderstood by female therapists
- Higher income predicts larger family size, but population density reduces it - New research shows income and population density interact to influence family size
- Sexual history patterns matter more than just total number of partners - How recently and frequently someone has had new partners impacts perceptions more than just the total "body count"
Introduction
Dr. Andrew Thomas is a senior lecturer of psychology at Swansea University and a writer focused on researching incels and male psychology. In this episode, he discusses his recent research on incels, including findings that challenge common stereotypes. He also covers new insights on how income and population density affect family size, as well as nuances in how sexual history impacts mate preferences.
Topics Discussed
Incel Research and Mental Health Approaches (5:19)
Thomas argues that incels should be looked at, at least in part, from a mental health perspective. His recent research found that mental health and incel ideology had about twice the predictive strength of networking in predicting harmful incel beliefs and behaviors. Importantly, there was a bidirectional relationship between mental health and ideology:
- Worse mental health was associated with stronger incel ideology
- Stronger incel ideology was associated with worsening mental health
Thomas suggests this implies that addressing mental health issues could be an effective way to reduce harmful incel ideology. He notes this is controversial, as some worry it excuses bad behavior, but argues the goal should be reducing misogyny and suffering by whatever means are most effective.
Incel Demographics and Diversity (36:18)
Thomas's research has challenged several common stereotypes about incels:
- About 1/3 are non-white, contradicting the idea of incels as a white supremacist movement
- The average age is around 26, not just young men
- They tend to be politically centrist or slightly left-leaning overall
- Only 6-10% justify violence in the name of incel ideology
He emphasizes there is significant diversity within incel communities, from left-leaning men with female friends to more extreme right-wing individuals. What unites them is a sense of hopelessness about relationship prospects.
Incel Violence and Ideology (21:33)
Thomas argues that actual incel violence, defined as physical attacks, is quite rare compared to organized terrorist groups. He notes there have only been a low double-digit number of confirmed incel attacks globally. However, incels do engage in significant online harm through misogynistic rhetoric, doxxing, etc.
He suggests the lack of in-person organizing and clear ideological goals contributes to the low levels of real-world violence from incels compared to other extremist movements. Thomas also notes that the incel tendency to retreat from society may paradoxically reduce violence by limiting real-world interactions.
Sympathy and Understanding for Incels (11:57)
Thomas discusses why sympathy for incels is often lacking:
- Stereotypes and media portrayals paint an overly simplistic, negative image
- Incels engage in "performative antagonism" online, saying extreme things to provoke reactions
- Their anonymous, online-focused communities limit real-world social connections
He argues more nuanced understanding is needed, as many incels are suffering and could benefit from mental health support. Thomas suggests the goal should be reducing harm and misogyny, not just punishing or condemning incels.
Men's Experiences with Female Therapists (58:27)
Thomas has found that many male clients, especially those from incel or conservative backgrounds, report negative experiences with female therapists:
- Feeling the therapist sided with female partners in couples therapy
- Lack of empathy for struggles with dating and relationships
- Ideological clashes, e.g. blaming issues on "toxic masculinity"
He notes this can reinforce men's reluctance to seek mental health support. However, Thomas emphasizes that the therapist's skill and approach matter more than gender, and men can have positive outcomes with female therapists who avoid bringing ideology into sessions.
Income, Population Density and Family Size (1:11:24)
Thomas discusses new research on factors influencing family size:
- Higher income generally predicts having more children
- Living in densely populated urban areas predicts having fewer children
- There's an interaction effect - high income can override the population density effect
He speculates this may be due to resource scarcity cues in cities leading people to invest more in fewer children. Thomas suggests urban planning approaches to make cities feel less dense could potentially impact birth rates.
Sexual History and Mate Preferences (1:20:56)
Thomas previews upcoming research on how sexual history impacts mate preferences:
- Lower numbers of past partners (e.g. 4) were consistently preferred across cultures compared to higher numbers (e.g. 12 or 36)
- The pattern of sexual history matters more than just the total number
- Having more recent/frequent new partners was viewed most negatively
- There were minimal gender differences, contradicting beliefs about sexual double standards
He notes people tend to predict others will apply sexual double standards, but don't actually do so themselves when making judgments. This highlights a discrepancy between perceived societal norms and individual behavior.
Conclusion
Dr. Andrew Thomas's research challenges many common assumptions about incels and provides new insights into factors shaping family size and mate preferences. Key themes include:
- The need for more nuanced understanding and mental health-focused interventions for incels
- The importance of moving beyond stereotypes to recognize diversity within incel communities
- How economic and demographic factors interact to influence family planning decisions
- The complex ways sexual history impacts mate preferences across cultures
His work highlights the value of rigorous empirical research in addressing controversial topics and informing more effective, compassionate approaches to complex social issues.