Loading...
September 15, 2024 • 1hr 23min
The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, host Lenny Rachitsky interviews Camille Fournier, a highly respected technology executive and author. Camille has held leadership positions at companies like Rent the Runway, Goldman Sachs, and JPMorgan Chase. She is the author of "The Manager's Path" and is releasing a new book on platform engineering. The conversation covers a wide range of topics relevant to engineering leadership, product management, and building effective technical teams.
The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)
0:00
-0:00
Key Takeaways
- Common annoyances between PMs and engineers:
- PMs hoarding credit for work done by engineers
- PMs not understanding or caring about technical details
- PMs playing "telephone" between engineers and stakeholders instead of facilitating direct communication
- PMs wanting to own all product ideas, leading engineers to over-engineer as a creative outlet
- Major system rewrites are often a trap:
- Engineers underestimate migration time and complexity
- Old systems often have undocumented logic and edge cases
- Incremental improvements are usually better than full rewrites
- Advice for new engineering managers:
- Gain technical mastery before moving into management
- Management is a service job, not about command and control
- Respect your own time and don't overload yourself with meetings
- Building effective platform teams:
- Include software engineers, not just operations/SRE roles
- Have dedicated product managers for platform products
- Focus on measurable impact and outcomes
- Be prepared for complex, long-running projects and stakeholder management
- Work-life balance for high performance:
- Regularly audit your time and cut non-essential tasks
- Delegate effectively to scale yourself
- Set boundaries and force yourself to log off
- Focus intensely during work hours
Introduction
In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, host Lenny Rachitsky interviews Camille Fournier, a highly respected technology executive and author. Camille has held leadership positions at companies like Rent the Runway, Goldman Sachs, and JPMorgan Chase. She is the author of "The Manager's Path" and is releasing a new book on platform engineering. The conversation covers a wide range of topics relevant to engineering leadership, product management, and building effective technical teams.
Topics Discussed
Common Annoyances Between PMs and Engineers (00:00)
Camille discusses several ways that product managers often annoy engineers:
- Hoarding credit: PMs sometimes take all the glory for projects engineers worked hard on. To avoid this, PMs should make efforts to share credit and give engineers opportunities to present their work.
- Not understanding technical details: When PMs act like technical details don't matter, it shows a lack of empathy for engineers' work. PMs should try to understand and appreciate the complexity, even if they don't need to know every detail.
- Playing "telephone": PMs sometimes act as unnecessary middlemen, relaying messages between engineers and stakeholders. This can lead to miscommunication and wasted time. PMs should facilitate direct communication when appropriate.
- Hoarding ideas: When PMs want to own all product ideas, engineers may feel creatively stifled and seek outlets through over-engineering. PMs should involve engineers in ideation and be open to their input.
Camille emphasizes: "Don't underestimate the ability for your engineers to want to understand the business problem, want to understand the customer problem. I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas."
The Pitfalls of Major System Rewrites (14:21)
Camille explains why major system rewrites are often a trap:
- Engineers frequently underestimate the time and complexity involved in migrating from old systems to new ones.
- Legacy systems often have undocumented logic and edge cases that are difficult to replicate.
- Supporting the old system while building the new one creates additional overhead.
- Long periods without new features can be frustrating for product teams and the business.
Instead of full rewrites, Camille recommends:
- Making thoughtful, staged plans for system evolution
- Focusing on well-contained components that can be uplifted without changing everything
- Considering whether a system truly needs to be changed if it's not actively harming the business
She notes: "Trying to say we're gonna just go away, we're gonna rewrite, we're gonna build something brand new and it's gonna solve all our problems. It just very rarely works."
Engineering Leadership Lessons (20:40)
Camille shares insights on effective engineering leadership:
- Balancing technical and leadership skills: Leaders should gain technical mastery before moving into management. This builds confidence and empathy for engineering work.
- Staying technically relevant: Even when not coding, leaders can stay current by listening to smart engineers discuss technical challenges and staying curious about new developments.
- Understanding the management role: Management is more about service than command and control. New managers are often surprised by how little they control their own time.
- Delegating effectively: Learning to delegate is crucial for scaling oneself and empowering team members.
On gaining technical mastery, Camille advises: "Don't stop being a hands on technical until you feel like it's in your bones. You feel like you've got mastery that you could, if you know a second language fluently or if you played an instrument really, really seriously for a long time or maybe a sport really, really seriously for a long time."
Moving from IC to Management (36:02)
Camille discusses the transition from individual contributor (IC) to management roles:
- Engineers should wait until they've gained technical mastery before moving into management, typically after 5-10 years of hands-on experience.
- New managers are often surprised by how little control they have over their time and how much of their job involves serving others rather than making all the decisions.
- The transition can be particularly challenging for women and underrepresented groups in tech, as they may face additional skepticism about their technical abilities.
She emphasizes: "If you don't feel like you're done right. If you're still having fun writing code, don't rush becoming a manager. Writing code is awesome. Have fun. Enjoy it."
One-on-One Meetings (40:32)
Camille offers a contrarian take on one-on-one meetings:
- While regular one-on-ones with direct reports and one's manager are crucial, having one-on-ones with everyone in the organization is not scalable.
- Too many one-on-ones can lead to inefficient use of time and may not solve underlying communication issues.
- For stakeholder management, group meetings can sometimes be more effective than individual one-on-ones.
She advises: "Respect your time. Don't just load yourself up with meetings because you're a manager and that's your job. You know, do you really have something to talk to a person about?"
Building a Balanced Work Culture (45:27)
Camille shares her philosophy on creating a high-performance culture with good work-life balance:
- Regularly audit your time and cut non-essential tasks
- Focus intensely during work hours to maximize productivity
- Set boundaries and force yourself to log off at certain times
- Delegate effectively to scale yourself and empower others
She emphasizes: "I'm just a real believer that working hard and a focused way for over fewer hours, I think, is a more productive way to approach work."
Advice for Platform Team Success (54:15)
Camille offers guidance on building effective platform teams:
- Team composition: Include software engineers, not just operations/SRE roles. Also have dedicated product managers for platform products.
- Focus on impact: Measure success through concrete outcomes like improved engineering productivity, reduced cycle times, or cost savings.
- Product mindset: Treat internal platforms as products, with a focus on user needs and continuous improvement.
- Stakeholder management: Be prepared for complex stakeholder relationships and the need to demonstrate value to the broader organization.
On the importance of software engineers, she notes: "Platform engineering is not just like maintaining cloud infrastructure and doing small scripts or blueprints or enablement projects for other teams, because that doesn't really create a cohesive and coherent platform."
AI Corner (1:12:48)
Camille shares her experiences with AI tools:
- She finds AI helpful for rephrasing sentences and small writing tasks, but less useful for large blocks of text.
- She cautions against using AI for generating quotes, as it often produces fake or inaccurate attributions.
- Camille admits to being an "AI novice" and expresses some frustration with the need to carefully manage AI prompts to get good results.
Conclusion
This wide-ranging conversation with Camille Fournier offers valuable insights for engineering leaders, product managers, and anyone involved in building technical teams and products. Key themes include the importance of empathy and communication between different roles, the value of thoughtful system evolution over risky rewrites, and the need for a balanced approach to productivity and work-life balance. Camille's experience shines through in her practical advice on leadership, team building, and navigating the complexities of platform engineering in modern organizations.
