June 25, 2024 • 1hr 1min

Robert Greene - Optimizing Your Reality - [Invest Like the Best, EP.379]

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy

In this episode of Invest Like the Best, Patrick O'Shaughnessy interviews Robert Greene, author of bestselling books like The 48 Laws of Power and Mastery. Greene has spent his career studying human behavior and why some people are able to build great things. The conversation explores Greene's ideas on power, mastery, finding one's life purpose, and understanding human nature.

0:00

-0:00

Key Takeaways

Reality and human nature are the common threads running through Robert Greene's work. He aims to look behind social masks and performances to understand what's really going on in the human psyche.
Masks and social roles are an inevitable part of human interaction, but we often lose touch with our true selves beneath the mask. Greene encourages being aware of when we're performing social roles.
Power is about having a degree of control over events and circumstances in your life. True power comes from self-control and adaptability.
Mastery is the highest level of skill, where you have internalized your craft to the point that you don't have to consciously think anymore. It comes from years of dedicated practice.
Finding your life's task involves connecting to what makes you unique and different from everyone else. This often stems from childhood interests and inclinations.
Observation is a critical skill for understanding human nature and achieving mastery in any field. Greene encourages getting outside of yourself to deeply observe others and the world around you.
The kindest thing anyone did for Greene was believing in his idea for The 48 Laws of Power and supporting him to write it, which transformed his life and career.

Introduction

In this episode of Invest Like the Best, Patrick O'Shaughnessy interviews Robert Greene, author of bestselling books like The 48 Laws of Power and Mastery. Greene has spent his career studying human behavior and why some people are able to build great things. The conversation explores Greene's ideas on power, mastery, finding one's life purpose, and understanding human nature.

Topics Discussed

Reality and Human Nature (2:47)

Greene explains that the common thread running through all his work is an exploration of reality - trying to look behind social masks and performances to understand what's really going on in the human psyche and soul. He aims to get at the reality of human nature as opposed to received ideas and superficial notions.

Most people are divorced from reality, living in a social realm where they wear masks and pretend
Greene's books try to look behind those masks to see what's really going on psychologically
Even his book Mastery aims to get at the reality of what creates excellence, rather than superficial ideas about talent or "hacks"

Childhood Origins of Interest in Reality (3:53)

Greene traces his fascination with reality and human nature back to childhood observations of his parents' social lives and parties in the 1960s. As a young child, he was struck by how weird and fake adult social interactions seemed compared to children's more straightforward play.

Children have a sense that their parents are odd and performing roles
Greene observed his parents' parties and thought the adults seemed fake, unlike children who knew they were pretending in their play
This planted the seeds for his later interest in social masks and performances

Games and Social Interactions (5:04)

Greene discusses his lifelong obsession with games and how he came to see social interactions as a type of unwritten game or performance with its own rules. This perspective shaped how he viewed workplace dynamics when he entered his career.

As a child, Greene was fascinated by creating imaginary worlds through games
He came to see social interactions as a type of game with unwritten rules
When he entered the workforce, he viewed office politics as a "power game" people were playing
"The idea that everything social has rules. If not, we couldn't live. We couldn't govern ourselves."

Masks and Social Personas (7:00)

Greene elaborates on the concept of social masks or personas that people adopt. He explains how these develop from childhood as we internalize social expectations and try to fit in.

We're born without a personality/mask, just as a "piece of nature"
As we're socialized, we develop a mask to meet expectations and hide parts of ourselves
The mask hardens as we get older, sometimes becoming a permanent expression
Most people lose awareness that they're playing roles and lose touch with their true self

The Sublime and Social Conventions (9:57)

Greene discusses his current work on the concept of the sublime - experiences that lie beyond normal social conventions and rules. He argues that social media and constant connectivity make it harder to access these transcendent experiences.

The "sublime" refers to experiences beyond normal social conventions
Social pressures and constant connectivity shrink our mental world
Accessing the sublime requires stepping outside social realms/pressures
It often involves wordless, hard-to-express experiences that go beyond linguistic limits

Writing The 48 Laws of Power (12:58)

Greene recounts how he came to write his famous book The 48 Laws of Power, born out of his frustration with the superficiality and hypocrisy he observed in Hollywood. He wanted to write about the reality of how power actually operates.

Greene was 36-37 when he got the chance to write the book after many unfulfilling jobs
He was frustrated by the disconnect between people's virtuous self-image and their actual behavior
The book was a chance to write about the "c**p that people don't want to confront" about power dynamics
He researched power across history, cultures, genders to develop the laws

Defining and Understanding Power (15:36)

Greene offers his definition of power and explains why it's an elusive concept to pin down precisely. He emphasizes that true power comes from self-control and adaptability.

Power is about having a degree of control over events and circumstances in your life
It's relational and psychological, not just about formal authority
True power comes from self-control and ability to manage one's appearance/behavior
"The ability to control yourself, to manage your appearances, to shut up when you need to shut up...is power."

Historical Figures and Adaptation (17:08)

Greene discusses historical figures who exemplified power through their ability to adapt to changing circumstances, like the French diplomat Talleyrand who survived multiple regime changes.

Talleyrand adapted from aristocracy to revolution to Napoleon's rule to restoration of monarchy
His ability to reinvent himself and thrive in different regimes exemplified power
Machiavelli saw adaptability as the ultimate form of power
Many leaders rise due to one quality but fall when unable to adapt as circumstances change

Modern Applications of Power Laws (26:45)

Greene reflects on which of the 48 laws of power have become more or less relevant in the modern world, particularly with social media. He argues that most remain highly applicable, just in new contexts.

"Crush your enemy totally" still applies in business, especially tech monopolies
"Never isolate yourself" is more relevant than ever in the social media age
The laws aren't meant to be rigidly applied - circumstances dictate which to use
"Social media and the modern world doesn't alter human nature. It emphasizes it, it brings it out even more."

The Boldness of Deception (29:34)

Greene shares the story of con artist Victor Lustig who famously "sold" the Eiffel Tower twice as an example of the power of bold deception. He explains why grand deceptions can be more effective than small lies.

Lustig created elaborate fake documents to "sell" the Eiffel Tower to industrialists
The audacity of the con made it seem more believable
Small lies are often easier to see through than grand deceptions
This principle is often employed by politicians and others in power

Exploring Good and Evil (32:04)

Greene shares his perspective on good and evil, arguing that true ethics comes from awareness of one's complete self, including the dark side, rather than pretending to be purely virtuous.

Everyone has a "dark side" or shadow that they often try to repress
Pretending to be purely virtuous often leads to the dark side leaking out in behavior
True ethics comes from awareness of one's complete self, good and bad sides
"To be a truly ethical human being...is to recognize that you're not as good as you think you are."

The Art of Seduction and AI (34:25)

Greene discusses why he believes true seduction depends on human qualities that AI could never replicate, like vulnerability and reading non-verbal cues.

Seduction depends on picking up non-verbal cues and mirror neurons
It requires vulnerability and genuinely falling for the other person to some degree
An AI-generated seducer would be too obvious and lack the human qualities needed
Seduction is about getting out of your head and into your body in a way AI can't replicate

Defining Mastery (37:52)

Greene defines mastery as the highest level of skill, where you've internalized your craft to the point that you don't have to consciously think. He describes it as mixing the rational with the intuitive.

Mastery is one step above creativity - it's where you have an intuitive feel for your field
You've internalized your domain so thoroughly that ideas come without conscious thought
It's a mixing of the rational and intuitive, the external and internal
"When you reach that level, it's almost woo woo. It's hard to even verbalize."

Discovering Your Life's Task (41:04)

Greene explains his concept of the "life's task" - the unique contribution each person is suited to make based on their innate qualities. He offers advice on how young people can start to discover this.

Each person has a unique genetic/experiential makeup that makes them one-of-a-kind
Your life's task is to realize your uniqueness and make it your source of power
Social pressures often disconnect us from our unique qualities and interests
Rediscovering your life's task requires introspection, journaling, examining childhood interests
"Connecting to what makes you different from everybody else is your life's task."

The Power of Observation (51:12)

Greene discusses the importance of keen observation in understanding human nature, highlighting 19th century novelists and psychologists as masters of this skill.

19th century novelists like Jane Austen were brilliant observers of human nature due to constant socializing
The best writers are non-judgmental observers of people as they truly are
Psychiatrists/psychologists who deal with patients daily also develop deep insight
Milton Erickson developed extraordinary observational skills after being paralyzed by polio

Challenge to Listeners (55:56)

Greene issues a challenge to listeners to get outside of themselves and become more observant of the world and others around them as an antidote to increasing self-absorption.

Get outside of your own obsessions/problems and observe others deeply
Immerse yourself in observing other people, animals, or any aspect of the external world
This is the best therapy and route to greater understanding/mastery
"Get outside of yourself and get into the external world and immerse your spirit and your mind and your body and your brain into something else."

The Kindest Thing Anyone Has Ever Done for Robert (59:00)

Greene shares that the kindest thing anyone did for him was when a Dutch book packager believed in his idea for The 48 Laws of Power and supported him to write it, transforming his life and career.

Greene was depressed and struggling in his career when he met Joost Elffers in Venice
He improvised the idea for 48 Laws of Power, and Elffers offered to support him to write it
This act of faith and support completely changed the trajectory of Greene's life
"He believed in me. He believed in my idea, he trusted me and he turned my life around."

Conclusion

This wide-ranging conversation with Robert Greene offers profound insights into human nature, power dynamics, and the pursuit of mastery. Greene's unique perspective, drawn from deep historical study and keen observation, challenges listeners to look beyond social masks to understand the reality of human behavior. His ideas on finding one's life purpose and dedicating oneself to mastery provide a roadmap for personal growth and fulfillment. Ultimately, Greene's work invites us to become more observant, adaptable, and in touch with our authentic selves as we navigate the complex social world around us.