February 1, 2021 • 1hr 16min

Understanding and Using Dreams to Learn and to Forget

Huberman Lab

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman discusses the science of dreaming, learning during sleep, and unlearning of troubling emotional events. He explores the physiology of sleep, the differences between slow wave sleep and REM sleep, and their roles in learning and emotional processing. Huberman also delves into the similarities between REM sleep and certain trauma therapies, as well as practical tips for optimizing sleep and dreaming.

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Key Takeaways

Sleep cycles are typically 90 minutes long, with more slow wave sleep early in the night and more REM sleep later in the night
Slow wave sleep is important for motor learning and detailed information learning
REM sleep is critical for emotional processing, uncoupling emotions from experiences, and establishing meaning
Consistency in sleep duration is more important than total sleep time for learning and performance
REM sleep shares similarities with trauma therapies like EMDR and ketamine treatment in dissociating emotions from experiences
Alcohol and marijuana disrupt normal sleep architecture and depth
Resistance exercise can increase slow wave sleep
Keeping a dream journal and setting cues before sleep may help induce lucid dreaming
Theory of mind in dreams is more associated with REM sleep
Consistency in sleep timing and duration is key for optimizing sleep benefits

Introduction

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman discusses the science of dreaming, learning during sleep, and unlearning of troubling emotional events. He explores the physiology of sleep, the differences between slow wave sleep and REM sleep, and their roles in learning and emotional processing. Huberman also delves into the similarities between REM sleep and certain trauma therapies, as well as practical tips for optimizing sleep and dreaming.

Topics Discussed

Sleep Cycles and Architecture (6:00)

Huberman explains that sleep is typically divided into 90-minute cycles. Early in the night, these cycles are dominated by slow wave sleep, while later cycles contain more REM sleep.

Slow wave sleep is characterized by large sweeping waves of brain activity
REM sleep involves rapid eye movements and vivid dreaming
The balance of neurotransmitters changes throughout the night:
- Acetylcholine levels drop during slow wave sleep
- Norepinephrine and serotonin are present in slow wave sleep
- Serotonin and norepinephrine are absent in REM sleep

Slow Wave Sleep and Learning (13:00)

Huberman discusses the importance of slow wave sleep for specific types of learning:

Motor learning - new physical skills and movements
Detailed information learning - specific facts and rules
Occurs primarily in the early part of the night
"Learning of those skills is happening primarily during slow wave sleep in the early part of the night."

REM Sleep and Emotional Processing (17:45)

The unique characteristics and functions of REM sleep are explored:

Characterized by rapid eye movements and vivid dreaming
Body is paralyzed (atonia) except for eye movements
Absence of epinephrine (adrenaline) allows for emotional processing without fear/anxiety
Important for:
- Uncoupling emotions from experiences
- Establishing meaning and connections between events
- Replay of spatial information
"REM sleep is powerful and has this amazing capacity to eliminate the meanings that don't matter."

Nightmares and Sleep Paralysis (23:35)

Huberman addresses common sleep disturbances:

Nightmares likely occur during slow wave sleep, not REM, due to the presence of epinephrine
Sleep paralysis is an invasion of REM atonia into the waking state
Some theories link alien abduction experiences to sleep paralysis and REM hallucinations

REM Sleep Deprivation Effects (29:00)

The consequences of not getting enough REM sleep are discussed:

Increased emotional irritability
Tendency to catastrophize small events
Difficulty processing and regulating emotions
"It's very clear from laboratory studies where people have been deprived selectively of REM sleep, that our emotionality tends to get a little bit unhinged."

Similarities Between REM Sleep and Trauma Therapies (36:20)

Huberman draws parallels between REM sleep and certain clinical treatments for trauma:

EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)
- Involves lateral eye movements while recounting traumatic events
- Suppresses amygdala activity, reducing emotional intensity
Ketamine therapy
- Dissociative anesthetic that blocks NMDA receptors
- Prevents strong emotional associations from forming
Both therapies, like REM sleep, aim to uncouple emotions from traumatic experiences
"We're starting to see an organizational logic, which is that a certain component of our sleeping life is acting like therapy."

Optimizing Sleep for Learning and Emotional Processing (51:40)

Huberman provides practical advice for improving sleep quality:

Consistency is key - aim for regular sleep and wake times
Avoid drinking fluids right before bed to prevent disruptions
Be cautious with serotonin-boosting supplements, as they may disrupt sleep architecture
Resistance exercise can increase slow wave sleep
Alcohol and marijuana disrupt normal sleep patterns and depth
"Try and find the right amount of sleep that you need that's right for you, and then try and get that consistently night to night."

Exploring Dreams and Lucid Dreaming (59:50)

Techniques for enhancing dream recall and inducing lucid dreams are discussed:

Keep a dream journal to record dreams upon waking
Set specific cues before sleep to remember in dreams
Theory of mind in dreams is more associated with REM sleep
"For those of you that are interested in lucid dreaming and would like to increase the amount of lucid dreaming that you're experiencing...there are a number of just simple zero technology tools that one could use."

Importance of Sleep Consistency (1:03:50)

Huberman emphasizes the value of maintaining consistent sleep patterns:

Research shows consistent sleep duration is more important than total sleep time for learning
Aim to wake up at the end of a sleep cycle (multiples of 90 minutes)
Consistency helps optimize both slow wave and REM sleep benefits
"I find it fascinating that consistency of sleep, meaning getting 6 hours every night is better than getting ten one night, eight the next, five the next, four the next."

Conclusion

Dr. Huberman concludes by emphasizing the importance of understanding sleep cycles and optimizing both slow wave and REM sleep for learning, emotional processing, and overall well-being. He encourages listeners to focus on sleep consistency rather than just total sleep time, and to use the various tools discussed throughout the episode to improve their sleep quality. The episode provides a comprehensive overview of the science behind dreaming and sleep, offering practical insights for leveraging sleep for better learning and emotional regulation.