July 24, 2023 • 2hr 31min

Dr. Maya Shankar: How to Shape Your Identity & Goals

Huberman Lab

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist and former senior advisor to the White House. They discuss how our identities develop and change over time, strategies for setting and pursuing goals effectively, and science-based approaches to motivation and behavior change. Dr. Shankar shares insights from her own experiences transitioning from aspiring professional violinist to cognitive scientist, as well as research findings on identity, empathy, and goal pursuit.

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Key Takeaways

Identity formation is influenced by both observation of others and labels/expectations placed on us by family/society. There's a concept called "identity foreclosure" where identities are imposed on young people, limiting their mindset.
Anchoring identity to "why" rather than "what" we do creates a more durable sense of self. Finding the underlying motivations and values that drive us allows for more flexibility as circumstances change.
Experiences of awe and delight can shape our identities by showing us new possibilities for ourselves and giving us a sense of where we might fit in the world.
Curiosity is a powerful driver that can lead us to new passions and identities. Being open to learning and exploring without attachment to outcomes allows for growth.
We tend to overestimate how much we'll change in the future (end-of-history illusion). Recognizing our capacity for change can make us more open to new experiences.
Getting feedback and different perspectives from others, especially those we disagree with, is crucial for developing self-awareness and challenging our beliefs.
Framing goals in terms of approach rather than avoidance, and giving ourselves agency in setting goals, increases motivation and likelihood of success.
The "middle problem" of decreased motivation partway through pursuing a goal can be overcome by breaking goals into shorter timeframes and using strategies like temptation bundling.
Understanding how we process memories (peak-end rule) can help us structure experiences to be more motivating and memorable.

Introduction

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist and former senior advisor to the White House. They discuss how our identities develop and change over time, strategies for setting and pursuing goals effectively, and science-based approaches to motivation and behavior change. Dr. Shankar shares insights from her own experiences transitioning from aspiring professional violinist to cognitive scientist, as well as research findings on identity, empathy, and goal pursuit.

Topics Discussed

Identity Formation and Change (5:15)

Dr. Shankar explains how our early identities are shaped by both observation of others and labels/expectations placed on us. There's a concept called "identity foreclosure" where identities are imposed on young people, limiting their mindset about what they can achieve.

She emphasizes the importance of anchoring identity to "why" we do things rather than "what" we do:

Creates a more durable sense of self that can withstand changes in circumstances
Allows us to find similar underlying motivations in new pursuits
Her example: Realizing her love of violin was about emotional connection, which she now pursues through cognitive science and podcasting

"I have learned in my adult life to anchor my identity to why I do the things I do rather than what I do. And I found this to be a much more durable, reliable relationship." - Dr. Maya Shankar

Awe, Delight and Identity (16:58)

They discuss how experiences of awe and delight can shape our identities by showing us new possibilities for ourselves. Key points:

Awe involves perceived vastness and a need to accommodate new information
Delight often comes from seeing a place for ourselves within something awe-inspiring
These experiences can lead us to new passions and identities

"When you see a place for yourself, and that takes an awe inspiring experience, actually, there's a translation process where you become something bigger than what you thought you could be." - Dr. Maya Shankar

Curiosity and Finding New Passions (1:06:32)

Dr. Shankar shares how curiosity led her to cognitive science after her violin career ended due to injury. Key insights:

Curiosity can be a powerful driver to explore new areas without attachment to outcomes
Asking "am I curious enough about this to want to learn more?" can guide us to new passions
It's important to enjoy the process of learning/improving, not just the end goal

Change, Cognitive Closure, and the End-of-History Illusion (1:13:20)

They discuss why change can be difficult and how we tend to misjudge our capacity for change:

We have a need for cognitive closure - clear, definitive answers
Reducing our need for closure can increase wellbeing and resilience
The end-of-history illusion: We recognize past changes but think we won't change much in the future
Recognizing our capacity for change can make us more open to new experiences

Self-Awareness and Critical Feedback (1:22:29)

They emphasize the importance of seeking different perspectives to develop self-awareness:

We have incomplete self-knowledge based on limited experiences
Surrounding ourselves with diverse people can reveal new aspects of ourselves
Seeking feedback, especially from those we disagree with, is valuable
It's okay to care what others think - they can provide important insights

"I would encourage people to actually seek out connections in uncomfortable spaces because that will allow you to fill in at least some of the gaps [in self-knowledge]." - Dr. Maya Shankar

Tools for a Flexible Mindset and Reframing (1:30:48)

Dr. Shankar shares strategies for developing a more flexible mindset:

Use third-person perspective to gain emotional distance from problems
When venting, ask friends to challenge your narrative rather than just sympathize
Practice updating opinions based on new information
Cultivate willingness to say "you're right and I'm wrong"

Framing Goals Effectively (1:40:13)

They discuss research-backed strategies for setting goals:

Approach vs. avoidance orientation: Frame goals positively (e.g. "eat healthy foods" vs. "avoid unhealthy foods")
Agency in goal-setting: Having ownership over goals increases motivation
Set goals in the same psychological/physiological state you'll be in when pursuing them
Build in "emergency reserves" or slack to avoid all-or-nothing thinking
Capitalize on "fresh start" moments like New Year's or Mondays

Maintaining Motivation: The "Middle Problem" (2:19:54)

Dr. Shankar explains the "middle problem" of decreased motivation partway through pursuing a goal. Strategies to overcome it:

Break goals into shorter timeframes to shorten the "middle"
"Temptation bundling": Pair unpleasant tasks with enjoyable activities
Be mindful of how we process memories (peak-end rule) to make experiences more motivating

Memory, Aversion, and the Peak-End Rule (2:24:55)

They discuss how understanding memory formation can help structure more motivating experiences:

We give more weight to the most intense moment and the end of an experience
Adding a slightly less unpleasant ending to an overall unpleasant experience can improve how it's remembered
This can be applied to make challenging activities (like workouts) more appealing to return to

Conclusion

This wide-ranging conversation offers numerous insights into how we can better understand and shape our identities, set effective goals, and maintain motivation. Key themes include:

The importance of curiosity and openness to change in personal growth
How experiences of awe and delight can guide us to new passions
The value of seeking diverse perspectives and feedback for self-awareness
Science-based strategies for framing goals and maintaining motivation
Understanding how our minds process experiences and memories to make positive changes

Dr. Shankar's interdisciplinary background allows her to draw connections between cognitive science, personal experience, and practical applications. Her insights offer listeners a toolkit for approaching identity, goals, and motivation with greater intentionality and effectiveness.