June 28, 2021 • 2hr 0min
Dr. Karl Deisseroth: Understanding & Healing the Mind
Huberman Lab
Key Takeaways
- Psychiatry focuses on mental disorders where there are no measurable physical signs - unlike neurology which deals with disorders that can be seen on brain scans or tests. Psychiatrists rely primarily on words and communication with patients to diagnose and treat mental illness.
- Current psychiatric treatments like medications and talk therapy can be very effective for many patients, but there is still a need for more targeted and precise treatments with fewer side effects.
- Optogenetics - a technique developed by Dr. Deisseroth's lab that uses light to control genetically modified neurons - is helping researchers understand the neural circuits involved in psychiatric symptoms and may lead to new treatment approaches.
- Brain-machine interfaces and closed-loop stimulation devices that can detect and respond to brain activity patterns may become part of psychiatric treatment in the future.
- Psychedelic compounds like psilocybin and MDMA show promise for treating conditions like depression and PTSD when used carefully in controlled settings, but more research is needed to understand how they work and their long-term effects.
- Dr. Deisseroth is optimistic about the future of psychiatry and believes new technologies and deeper understanding of the brain will lead to better treatments, while emphasizing the importance of maintaining scientific rigor.
Introduction
Dr. Karl Deisseroth is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and bioengineering researcher at Stanford University. He is known for developing optogenetics, a technique that allows precise control of neurons using light, as well as other methods for studying the brain. In this wide-ranging conversation, Dr. Deisseroth discusses his clinical work as a psychiatrist, his research developing new tools to understand the brain, and his views on the current state and future of psychiatry and mental health treatment.
Topics Discussed
Psychiatry vs. Neurology (7:41)
Dr. Deisseroth explains the key differences between psychiatry and neurology:
- Psychiatry deals with mental disorders that have no measurable physical signs or tests
- Neurology focuses on disorders that can be seen on brain scans or measured with tests
- Psychiatrists rely primarily on words and communication to diagnose and treat patients
- "We've got the most complex, beautiful, mysterious, incredibly engineered object in the universe, and yet all we have are words to find our way in," says Dr. Deisseroth about the challenge of psychiatry
Current Psychiatric Treatments (22:47)
Dr. Deisseroth discusses some of the current effective treatments in psychiatry:
- Cognitive behavioral therapy can be very effective for conditions like panic disorder
- Antipsychotic medications can dramatically improve symptoms of schizophrenia
- Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is highly effective for treatment-resistant depression
- However, many treatments still lack specificity and have side effects
Optogenetics and New Research Tools (32:23)
Dr. Deisseroth explains optogenetics, a technique developed by his lab:
- Uses light-sensitive proteins from algae to control specific neurons
- Allows researchers to turn neurons on or off with precise timing
- Has revolutionized neuroscience research by allowing causal manipulation of neural circuits
- May lead to new treatment approaches by revealing which brain circuits are involved in psychiatric symptoms
Applying Optogenetics to Treat Mental Illness (47:10)
Dr. Deisseroth discusses the potential for using optogenetics-inspired approaches to treat psychiatric disorders:
- Could allow more precise stimulation of specific brain circuits compared to current treatments
- Challenges include delivering genes and light to the right brain areas
- May initially be used to guide development of more targeted medications
Brain-Machine Interfaces (1:16:00)
Dr. Deisseroth shares his thoughts on brain-machine interfaces for psychiatric treatment:
- Could allow closed-loop stimulation that responds to detected brain activity patterns
- May become part of psychiatric treatment in the future
- Still invasive, so careful consideration of risks and benefits is needed
ADHD and Attention (1:19:30)
The discussion turns to ADHD and managing attention:
- ADHD involves symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity
- Dr. Deisseroth describes his own approach to focusing: sitting still and thinking without distractions
- Modern technology and constant connectivity may contribute to attention challenges for many people
Balancing Multiple Roles (1:26:36)
Dr. Deisseroth discusses how he balances his clinical work, research, writing, and family life:
- Takes it "day by day" but tries to preserve time for focused thinking
- Protects blocks of time for writing and deep thought
- Uses tools like focus mode on his computer to avoid distractions
CLARITY Brain Imaging Technique (1:35:41)
Dr. Deisseroth explains CLARITY, another technique developed by his lab:
- Makes brain tissue transparent while preserving its structure
- Allows 3D imaging of intact brain circuits
- Part of a broader "hydrogel tissue chemistry" approach
Psychedelic Compounds for Treating Mental Illness (1:46:03)
The conversation turns to the potential of psychedelic compounds for psychiatric treatment:
- Compounds like psilocybin and LSD may help "open up" new mental pathways
- Could potentially help patients with depression see new possibilities
- Dr. Deisseroth's lab is studying how these compounds affect brain activity
- Careful, rigorous research is needed to understand benefits and risks
MDMA for Treating PTSD (1:54:12)
Dr. Deisseroth discusses MDMA (ecstasy) as a potential treatment for PTSD:
- Increases both dopamine and serotonin in the brain
- May help patients learn from the experience of heightened connection
- Could allow formation of new mental models that persist after the drug wears off
Dr. Deisseroth's New Book "Projections" (1:57:15)
Dr. Deisseroth discusses his recent book "Projections: A Story of Human Emotions":
- Aimed to be accessible to general readers while remaining scientifically rigorous
- Uses stories of patient interactions to explore neuroscience and psychiatry
- Conveys optimism about the future of understanding and treating mental illness
Conclusion
This wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Karl Deisseroth provides a fascinating look at the current state and future directions of psychiatry and neuroscience. Dr. Deisseroth's work developing new tools like optogenetics is helping researchers gain unprecedented insight into how neural circuits give rise to complex behaviors and mental states. While many challenges remain in understanding and treating psychiatric disorders, Dr. Deisseroth conveys cautious optimism that continued scientific advances will lead to more effective and targeted treatments. His ability to bridge clinical psychiatry, cutting-edge neuroscience research, and clear science communication offers a unique and valuable perspective on some of the most complex aspects of the human mind and brain.
