September 2, 2024 • 2hr 16min

Dr. Jamil Zaki: How to Cultivate a Positive, Growth-Oriented Mindset

Huberman Lab

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Jamil Zaki, professor of psychology at Stanford University and director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Laboratory. They discuss cynicism, its effects on wellbeing and relationships, and how to cultivate a more positive yet realistic view of others and the world. Dr. Zaki explains that cynicism - the belief that people are fundamentally selfish and untrustworthy - can negatively impact mental and physical health, creativity, and social connections. He contrasts cynicism with skepticism, which involves being open to new information. The conversation explores the roots of cynicism, its prevalence in different cultures, how social media amplifies it, and evidence-based practices for reducing cynicism and fostering more accurate, hopeful views of others.

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Key Takeaways

Cynicism is a theory that people are fundamentally selfish, greedy and dishonest. It can lead to lower wellbeing, worse health outcomes, and reduced creativity and collaboration.
Skepticism is different from cynicism. Skepticism involves being open to new information and updating beliefs, while cynicism involves a fixed negative view of others.
Cynicism can create a "wicked learning environment" where people don't gather information that could disprove their negative assumptions about others.
Cultures with more economic equality tend to have higher levels of trust. Inequality can create a sense of zero-sum competition that erodes trust.
Social media can act as a "cynicism factory" by amplifying extreme voices and negative content, distorting our view of others.
We tend to underestimate how positive and cooperative others actually are. Most people want more collaboration and compromise than we assume.
Practices like "social savoring", taking "leaps of faith", and challenging our cynical assumptions can help reduce cynicism and foster more accurate, hopeful views of others.
Adopting "hopeful skepticism" - being open to positive information about others while maintaining healthy skepticism - is an ideal mindset for navigating social relationships and learning.

Introduction

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Jamil Zaki, professor of psychology at Stanford University and director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Laboratory. They discuss cynicism, its effects on wellbeing and relationships, and how to cultivate a more positive yet realistic view of others and the world.

Dr. Zaki explains that cynicism - the belief that people are fundamentally selfish and untrustworthy - can negatively impact mental and physical health, creativity, and social connections. He contrasts cynicism with skepticism, which involves being open to new information. The conversation explores the roots of cynicism, its prevalence in different cultures, how social media amplifies it, and evidence-based practices for reducing cynicism and fostering more accurate, hopeful views of others.

Topics Discussed

Defining Cynicism and Its Effects (6:59)

Dr. Zaki defines cynicism as a theory that people are fundamentally selfish, greedy and dishonest. He explains that while cynics may acknowledge kind acts, they view them as a thin veneer covering underlying selfishness.

Research shows cynicism is associated with negative outcomes:

Lower levels of happiness and life satisfaction
Higher rates of depression and loneliness
Increased cellular inflammation
Higher rates of heart disease
Higher all-cause mortality

Dr. Zaki notes: "If cynicism was a pill that listed depression, loneliness, heart disease and early death as side effects, it would be a poison. It would have a skull and crossbones on the bottle. But yet we're swallowing it."

Cynicism vs. Skepticism (17:29)

Dr. Zaki contrasts cynicism with skepticism:

Cynicism involves a fixed negative view of others that is resistant to new information
Skepticism involves being open to new information and updating one's beliefs

He explains that cynics think like lawyers trying to prove a case against humanity, while skeptics think more like scientists gathering data. Skepticism allows for more nuanced, accurate views of others.

Cultural Variability in Trust (23:30)

Dr. Zaki discusses how levels of generalized trust vary across cultures:

More economically equal societies tend to have higher trust
Inequality can create a sense of zero-sum competition that erodes trust
Trust in the US has declined significantly since the 1970s

He notes that in highly unequal societies, there's often a sense that "anything another person gets, I lose," making it difficult to form trusting bonds.

Cynicism and Intelligence (27:40)

Dr. Zaki discusses research showing that contrary to stereotypes, cynics do not tend to be more intelligent:

Cynics perform worse on cognitive and math tests
Trust is positively correlated with intelligence and education
Cynics are worse at detecting lies and deception

He explains this may be because cynics' blanket assumptions prevent them from carefully attending to evidence.

Cooperative vs. Competitive Environments (39:48)

Dr. Zaki describes research on fishing villages in Brazil showing how cooperative vs. competitive work environments shape trust over time:

Ocean fishermen who had to collaborate became more trusting over their careers
Lake fishermen who competed became less trusting over time

This demonstrates how our social environments can shape our levels of trust and cynicism long-term.

Cynicism and Creativity (57:13)

Dr. Zaki explains how cynical, competitive work environments can stifle creativity and collaboration:

Stack-ranked workplaces make people less likely to take creative risks
When people view coworkers as competitors, they're less likely to share knowledge
Collaborative environments foster both individual and group creativity

He notes that succeeding and being creative require environments where people feel safe to contribute and collaborate.

Social Media and Cynicism (1:11:11)

Dr. Zaki discusses how social media can act as a "cynicism factory":

Outrage and negative content is amplified algorithmically
A small minority of extreme users produce most political content
This creates a skewed, overly negative view of others

He explains this contributes to "mean world syndrome" where heavy media consumers overestimate dangers and negative traits in others.

Underestimating Others' Positivity (1:24:03)

Dr. Zaki shares research showing we tend to underestimate how positive and cooperative others actually are:

Most people want more political compromise and cooperation than we assume
We overestimate how much the other political side supports violence by 400%
In workplaces, most people want more collaboration than competition

He notes: "The average person underestimates the average person. Not that we underestimate everybody, but that we're wrong about most people."

Tools to Reduce Cynicism (1:39:05)

Dr. Zaki offers several evidence-based practices to reduce cynicism:

Mindset skepticism - Challenge your cynical assumptions by asking for evidence
Reciprocity mindset - Remember that trusting others makes them more trustworthy
Social savoring - Actively notice and appreciate positive traits/actions in others
Leaps of faith - Take calculated social risks to gather new data about others
Encounter counting - Document positive interactions that contradict cynical expectations

He emphasizes the importance of not just taking social risks, but documenting their effects to solidify learning.

Political Polarization (1:58:09)

Dr. Zaki discusses research on political polarization:

We vastly overestimate how extreme and different the other side is
People think the other side hates them twice as much as they actually do
Most people on both sides want more compromise and less conflict

He notes that while real divisions exist, perceived polarization is much greater than actual polarization. Correcting these misperceptions can reduce escalation.

Benefits of Challenging Conversations (2:06:06)

Dr. Zaki shares research on the benefits of having challenging conversations across political divides:

People forecast these conversations will go poorly
In reality, most rate them extremely positively (100/100)
They reduce negative emotions toward the other side
They increase intellectual humility

He emphasizes that while we avoid these conversations out of fear, they often lead to surprisingly positive outcomes when we take the risk.

Conclusion

Dr. Zaki makes a compelling case that cynicism - while understandable given negative experiences and media portrayals - often gives us an inaccurate, overly negative view of others. This not only harms our wellbeing and relationships, but prevents us from gathering data that could disprove our cynical assumptions.

He advocates for "hopeful skepticism" - maintaining healthy skepticism while being open to positive information about others. By challenging our cynical assumptions, taking social risks, and actively noticing the good in others, we can develop more accurate and hopeful views that allow for deeper connections and collaboration.

Ultimately, Dr. Zaki's research suggests that most people are more positive, cooperative and trustworthy than we assume. By recognizing this "hope gap" between our perceptions and reality, we can work to close it - benefiting both ourselves and our broader communities.